Bugs, Drugs and Patents

I suspect that many of you (after reading the title of this post) might be expecting another rant about the need for new antibiotics to treat infections caused by multiple drug resistant strains of bacteria. Sorry to disappoint you because that isn’t what this post is about. After reading and listening to several seemingly disparate radio and newspaper stories this morning, I decided to combine three different stories into a single post that touches on several common themes.

First, I heard a story on NPR this morning (while driving my daughter to middle school) about FDA’s initiative to require that oysters harvested from the Gulf of Mexico be pretreated before they can be served in restaurants and eaten raw. The reason for this initiative is that a majority of live oysters harvested from the Gulf of Mexico are usually contaminated with the opportunistic bacterial pathogen Vibrio vulnificus and other Vibrio species. Approximately, 15 or more immunocompromised patents die each year and many more get ill after ingesting raw Louisiana oysters infected with V. vulnificus. FDA, (which for those of you who don’t know also regulates the food and cosmetic industries in addition to the drug and devices industries), spent the past few years crafting regulatory guidelines that called for mandatory  treatment (irradiation or pasteurization) of oysters from the Gulf of Mexico before they are served “raw” at restaurants and other commercial food operations. The regulations were to be implemented sometime in 2011. While many of the larger commercial Louisiana-based raw oyster producers already pre-treat their oysters before they are sold to restaurants, the pretreatment requirement would be economically onerous and challenging to “mom and pop” oyster business throughout Louisiana. Not surprisingly, given the economic devastation caused by hurricane Katrina several years ago, FDA was assaulted by oyster manufacturing trade groups and Louisiana politicians and lobbyists asking the agency to delay implementation of the new rules. Unfortunately, FDA officials caved and yielded to the onslaught and agreed to conduct a pilot study designed to assess the effectiveness of the program before forcing the new rules on the Gulf Coast oyster industry.  For the record, I love eating raw oysters and the thought of eating a so-called “raw oysters” that have previously been pasteurized or irradiated seems unseemly and unappealing to me. However, FDA’s mission is to provide Americans with a safe food supply and to minimize the incidence of any public health risks associated with or caused by it. The fact that FDA was cajoled and yielded to calls that that the agency placed economic concerns ahead of known public health risks is lamentable and truly regrettable. Rather than spending excessive amounts of money on lobbying efforts to delay appropriate public health initiatives, the Gulf Coast oyster industry and its trade groups and lobbyist ought to consider investing in efforts to combat global warming and Gulf of Mexico water pollution, which in turn, would reduce the bacterial load of live oysters harvested from the Gulf of Mexico and serve to raw oyster enthusiasts. 

On a more upbeat note about infectious diseases (sort of), there was an article in today’s Science Times which reported the results of a study that linked exposure to five so-called common pathogens, Chalmydia pneumoniae, Helicobacter pylori, cytomegalovirus and Herpes simplex types 1 and 2 to increased risk of stroke. According to the article, each of these pathogens may persist after acute infections and contribute to an ongoing chronic low level infection. These low level infections coupled with chronic inflammation of blood vessels induced by the infections may contribute to the increased likelihood of stroke. While intriguing, authors of the study warn that their results don’t establish a cause-and-effect relationship between these infections and stroke. More research will be required to determine whether or not there is a definitive link between these infections and the incidence of stroke..

Speaking of stroke and heart attacks, I want to turn my attention to the clinical trial results reported yesterday by Merck & Co about its cholesterol-lowering drugs Zetia and Vytorin. As you may recall, a brouhaha erupted about a year ago about whether or not the cholesterol-lowering effects of  Merck’s  blockbuster drugs Zetia and Vytorin (which is a combination of Zetia and the statin Zocor) actually protected patients from increased risk of heart attack and stroke. The results of the long awaited study which were presented at an American Heart Association meeting on Monday support previous findings of two earlier clinical studies which showed that despite lowering LDL cholesterol levels, Zetia and Vytorin don’t reduce the risk of heart attack or stroke in at-risk patients. 

In the study patients who were at risk for cardiovascular disease were treated with statins in combination with either Zetia or Niaspan (a prescription, controlled-release formulation of over-the-counter niacin supplements that exhibits cholesterol-lowering properties). Patients who received statins plus Niaspan had decreased thickening of the walls (caused by atherosclerosis) of the carotid artery whereas those treated with Zetia failed to inhibit arterial plaque buildup. In other words, Zetia (and Vytorin) which are expensive prescription drugs don’t provide any health benefits beyond those offered by statins, many of which (including Merck’s Zocor) are available as low-cost generics.

Despite the lack of any clear medical or health benefits, sales of Zetia and Vytorin generated about $4.8 billion in sales last year. You would think that Merck and its stakeholders would be devastated by the results of the new study. However, they were actually happy about the news—they were fearful (based on data from the earlier studies) that Zetia may actually increase the risk of heart attack and stroke! What is particularly revealing (and disturbing) about the whole Zetia/Vytorin story is that Merck is relieved that an expensive drug that it heavily promoted as being beneficial and safe is in reality not beneficial. When did it become acceptable that the only requirement for FDA approval of prescription drugs is safety? Doesn’t a drug have to also show a positive therapeutic and clinical effect (over previously approved drugs for the same indication) before it wins regulatory approval? The fact that physicians continue to prescribe ineffective, multi-billion dollar drugs like Zetia instead of cheaper and effective generic versions of cholesterol-lowering drugs another troubling sign of  our current economic situation and the need for healthcare reform in the US.

Finally, for you patent aficionados, there was an illuminating and incisive op-ed piece in today’s NY Times that shed light on the problems with the current US patent approval process. While I have substantial experience in this area, I learned more from reading this article than I did from the many years that I worked closely with patent and intellectual property attorneys. This article is a must read for those persons considering careers in intellectual property and patent law and entrepreneurial individuals who are interested in starting up life sciences companies.

Until next time...

Good Luck and Live and Learn!!!!

 

The Changing Face of Pharmaceutical Sales: AstraZeneca Offers Its Entire Sales Force a Buyout Option

The Pharmalot Blog reported today that AstraZeneca offered all of it sales representatives—numbering 5,000-6,000—a buyout option. However, AstraZeneca prefers to avoid the term buyout and instead instructed its reps to ’self identify’ whether or not they want a package to leave the company. According to the post, an AstraZeneca spokesman declined to discuss how many reps it would like to shed, but did provide this statement:

“AstraZeneca is making changes to our sales force, which will be managed first by looking at vacancies and offering field sales employees the opportunity to self-identify whether they are interested in leaving the company. We will know the full scope of the changes in the coming weeks.”

Like many other pharma companies, AstraZeneca will lose $11.1 billion in patented-protected revenue by the end of 2012 and face stiff generic competition.

Pharma sales reps, like R&D scientists, have been facing tough times over the past three years or so. In the late 1990s, pharma companies hired massive numbers of reps, only to realize several years later, that increasing the number of reps didn’t necessarily translate into increase drug sales. The economic downturn, coupled with projected loss of revenues due to patent expiry of blockbuster drugs over the next few years, provided pharma with an opportunity to downsize. Finally, the growing use of web-based strategies to educate physicians, contract sales forces and a diminishing number of products led to the demise of the pharma rep as we know it.

My recommendation to downsized reps is to get some biotechnology training or device/diagnostic training and to try and leverage previous experience into sales jobs at biotechnology and devices companies. Both industries have enormous growth potential and the transition from pharma to them shouldn’t be all that onerous.

Until next time...

Good Luck and Good Job Hunting!!!!!!

 

YouTube Pharmaceutical Watch: Which Company's Videos Rock?

Mark Sendak, author of the incisive EyeonFDA blog and social media enthusiast, has been keeping a watchful eye (pun intended) on the growing number of pharmaceutical companies that are adding channels and videos to YouTube. 

On his blog today, Mark reviews several new channels developed by Novartis, Johnson and Johnson, Teva, Boehringer Ingelheim and AstraZeneca. While a growing number of pharmaceutical companies continue to add new channels on YouTube, Mark contends that the “success of these channels has varied greatly and several companies have obviously developed the channels without any idea of what they would like to do with them and some of the channels show obvious signs of neglect.”

To learn more about pharma’s incursion on YouTube, read Mark’s post!

Until next time...

Good Luck and Good Video Watching

 

Obama Seeks Compromise on Length of Data Exclusivity for Follow-on Biologics

As the Congressional debate over follow-on biologics slogs on, the Obama Administration has finally weighed in and backs 7 years of data exclusivity for follow-on biologics. As you may recall, innovator companies want a 12-14 year data exclusivity period whereas follow-on biologics manufacturers are seeking a 5-year period (which is identical to the data exclusivity period for small molecules generic drugs outlined in the Hatch Waxman Act). What this means—based on the Obama Administration's proposal—is that a follow-on biologic manufacturer must wait seven years from the date of approval for the innovator (branded) drug before the US Food and Drug Administration could consider approval of a follow-on version of the molecule.

It is not surprising that the Obama Administration supports a 7 data exclusivity period--it is, after all, a compromise between the 5 year period sought by the follow-on manufacturers and the 12-14 years that the innovator companies are seeking. And, Mr Obama has repeatedly shown a willingness to compromise when it comes to getting important legislation passed. Hopefully, Congress will take the Obama Administration's compromise to heart and pass follow-on biologics legislation as quickly as possible.

 Until next time...

 Good Luck and Good Job Hunting!

 

 

Some Revealing Pharma Factoids

From time to time, I come across some interesting facts and statistics that are worth noting. This month’s issue of Pharmaceutical Technology Europe offered several things that were blog-worthy. Here they are: 

  • IMS Health has readjusted the growth of the pharmaceutical industry in 2009 from 4.5-5.5% to 2.5-3.6% with sales expected to exceed $820 billion
  • The size of the US pharmaceutical market is expected to contract by 1-2% in 2009
  • Emerging markets like China, India and Brazil are expected to contribute to more than half of the global market growth in 2009 and sustain an average growth rate of 40% by 2013
  • The size of the Middle East pharmaceutical market is predicted to exceed $18 billion by 2014

As one industry analyst put it “This high level of growth in emerging markets, combined with the contraction of the US market and ongoing low single-digit growth in other developed markets, is driving the pharmaceutical market to a new world order.” If I had money, I would be investing in generic pharmaceutical companies and follow-on biologic manufacturers!

Until next time...

Good Luck and Good Job Hunting!!!!!!!!

 

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Looking to the East: GlaxoSmithKline Inks a Deal with India's Dr. Reddy's Laboratories

GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) inked a deal yesterday with the Indian generics manufacturer Dr. Reddy’s Laboratories giving it access to over 100 future generic drugs and a gateway to Asia’s emerging pharmaceutical markets. The therapeutic areas covered under the agreement include diabetes, cardiovascular, pain management, gastroenterology and oncology. Dr Reddy’s Laboratories is one of India’s largest generic drug manufacturers. Like many of its competitors, Dr. Reddy’s Laboratories also have active development programs for new biotechnology drugs and biosimilar products.

UK-based, GSK joins a growing number of pharmaceutical companies including Pfizer, Merck and others that have entered into deals with major generic drug manufacturers—or purchased smaller generics companies—to gain access to generics pipelines and an ability to compete in emerging  non-branded pharmaceutical markets. Impending US healthcare reform and downward pricing pressures (resulting from increased global competition) have forced drug makers to reevaluate the role that generic drugs will likely play in future pharmaceutical revenue streams.

While generic drug makers have outstanding manufacturing capabilities, they generally lack the marketing, sales and distribution channels necessary to penetrate foreign markets and quickly ramp up drug sales. I suspect that the number of deals between pharmaceutical companies and generic manufacturers will continue to increase as many of the patents for multibillion, blockbuster drugs continue to expire in the next few years.

Until next time....

Good Luck and Good Job Hunting!!!!!!!!!

 

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US Pharma Jobs: Some Good and Bad News

Let me begin with the good news. The Indianapolis Business journal reported today that Schwarz Pharma Manufacturing, Inc is planning a $12 million expansion of its Seymour, Indiana manufacturing plant and distribution center. When completed the expansion is expected to increase the company's employment in the southern Indiana city from 366 to 516 by 2011. The drug maker-a unit of Schwarz Pharma AG of Monheim, Germany-said it plans to begin hiring managers, business associates and production staff later this month.

And now, the bad news. The Pharmalot Blog reported today that the New Jersey-based generic manufacturer Par Pharmaceuticals is eliminating 26 percent of its workforce expected to save from $45 million to $55 million a year. Jobs will be lost in manufacturing, research and development, and other departments. How much more downsizing and job elimination can New Jersey take before it goes bankrupt? Maybe Icelanders can shed some light on that?

Until next time….

Good Luck and Good Job Hunting

 

Rumor on the Street: Teva to Buy Barr Pharmaceuticals?

A post today on the Pharmalot blog suggests that Israeli generic manufacturer Teva is in talks to acquire US-based Barr Pharmaceuticals for  $7.0 -7.5$ billion. Barr’s present market cap is approximately $5.0 billion.

The acquisition would make sense for Teva to broaden its reach into the generic and branded generic markets in the US. Also, Barr recently acquired PLIVA which has active research programs on biosimilars and is currently selling its version of EPO in Croatia and other parts of Eastern Europe.

Teva has been trying to get into the biosimilar/follow-on biologics market for the past eight years or so. The company previously bought several early stage biogenerics manufacturers but have yet to advance their plans to formally enter the biosimilar/follow-on biologics market. This may be the opportunity that Teva has been looking for!

Check back for updates.

Until next time…

Good Luck and Good Job Hunting!!!!!!

Word on the Street: Pfizer May Counteroffer for Ranbaxy

Rumor has it that Pfizer may offer a counteroffer to acquire India-based generics manufacturer Ranbaxy. As you may recall, Japan’s Daiichi Sankyo agreed earlier in the week to pay about $4.6 billion for a controlling interest in Ranbaxy. According to reports many analysts expect Pfizer to attempt to queer to the Daiichi-Ranbaxy deal because “it is battling Ranbaxy in about 18 countries on patent rights of Lipitor, the largest selling cholesterol drug in the world. Lipitor has annual sales of $13 billion. In most countries the patent on the drug will expire starting 2011.”  Ranbaxy has won favorable court decisions on Lipitor in many countries including in the US, the largest drug market in the world, which accounts for 28 per cent of the global generic market estimated at $72 billion.

I tend to agree with the pundits. Pfizer has a lousy pipeline and its recent clinical trial record is horrendous. Consequently, the company must hang on (as long as possible and at any cost) to its blockbuster brands to avoid financial ruin.

Stay tuned for late-breaking news and updates!

Until next time…

Good Luck and Good Job Hunting!!!!!

Around the World: Corporate Downsizing Update

It’s summertime during a recession. What better time is there to give employees an extended vacation by announcing job cuts at the start of summer?  

Generic manufacturer Mylan announced that it is cutting jobs at a pharmaceutical manufacturing plant in central Puerto Rico. According to a company spokesperson, 100 jobs will be eliminated in coming weeks. Mylan had announced in February that it would be eliminating jobs at five locations as part of a companywide restructuring. The Pittsburg, PA-based company is the latest pharmaceutical company to announce cuts in Puerto Rico. The industry has eliminated more than 3,000 jobs here since mid-2006.

In other news, Palo Alto, CA-based Jazz Pharmaceuticals Inc. said Wednesday it plans to cut 8 percent of its work force -- or 33 employees -- primarily in research and development and administrative areas, and delay development of two drugs.

Finally, according to Ed Silverman over at Pharmalot, New Jersey-based Schering Plough has begun the massive layoffs it announced last April. As you may recall, CEO Fred Hassan still reeling from the Vytorin and Zetia flap, assured analysts and shareholders that he can right the ship by laying off about 5,500 employees or 10% of Schering’s workforce. He vowed to “consolidate management; use more shared staff support and services; reduce travel; cut sales and marketing; slash R&D; consolidate product lines, particularly in the animal health unit; and close some of the 60 manufacturing plants.” The previously announced job cuts are in addition to the 400 jobs that were eliminated after Schering Plough acquired Organon Biosciences.

Unfortunately, I guess it is going to be a long, hot, summer for the folks who lost their jobs.

Until next time….

Good Luck and Try to Hold On To Your Job (if you have one)

Japan's Daiichi Sankyo Co Buy's Generic Manufacturer Ranbaxy

Daiichi Sankyo will buy a controlling interest (50.1%) of Ranbaxy, India’s third largest generic manufacturer.  Daiichi will pay as much as $4.6 billion for the opportunity.

The deal will put Daiichi Sankyo into ninth place in the $120 billion generic-drug market behind leaders Teva Pharmaceutical Industries Ltd. and Novartis AG's Sandoz unit. According to the report “Daiichi Sankyo is mimicking strategies pursued by Novartis and Johnson & Johnson to weather turbulence in the branded-drug industry by diversifying into other markets. The acquisition also gives the Japanese company more reach in emerging regions including India, China and Eastern Europe. “

I think after this deal, that other pharmaceutical companies may consider buying profitable generics businesses. I am not sure why it has taken innovator companies so long to realize that it is much easier to join (buy??) rather than compete with generic manufacturers. It just seems so obvious to me—and I don’t even have an MBA!  Maybe there is some truth to the age-old aphorism “missing the forest for the trees.”

Until next time…

Good Luck and Good Job Hunting!!!!!

Biosimilar Version of G-CSF Gets the Nod from EMEA

The first biosimilar version of granulocyte colony stimulating factor (G-CSF) received a positive opinion from EMEA last month The European commission is expected to grant marketing approval for the product in the EU. The product, developed by Israel-based Teva, a global generics manufacturer, will be sold under the brand name TevaGrastim. The company is seeking EU approval for TevaGrastim a as treatment of chemotherapy-induced neutropenia.  

Amgen’s Neupogen, the innovator product, yields annual revenues of approximately $300 million in the EU. Teva hopes to cash in on a piece of that action. It appears that biosimilars are alive, well and making money in Europe!

Until next time…

Good Luck and Good Job Hunting!!!!!

It's Official: Profits Are Falling at Drug Companies

Over the past few days, many drug companies have been reporting their earnings for the first quarter of 2008.  Few, if any, (except for Biogen/IDEC),  met the numbers that Wall Street analysts had expected and most reported that profits were "way down." Unfortunately, this means that more layoffs at drug manufacturers can likely  be expected in the coming months and that drug prices may rise.

Of course, the poor performances of these companies had little bearing on the compensation packages that many of the CEOs of these companies received in 2007.  It never ceases to amaze me that companies can lay off thousands of workers to cut cost s and then turn around and give CEOs who performed horribly (which led to the layoffs) tens of millions or more in compensation.  Just think how many workers could have kept their jobs and been able to feed their familiies if mediocre CEOs, who didn't do their jobs were paid what they are worth!

Ain't capitalism great?

Until next time....

Good Luck and Good Job Hunting!!!!!

 

Meet the Coalition for a Competitive Pharmaceutical Market

About five years ago, a friend of mine and I had an idea to form a non-profit dedicated to providing consumers with information regarding the safety of marketed pharmaceutical and biotechnology medicines.  At the time, we observed that consumers were repeatedly being misinformed about the safety and efficacy of many products, most notably follow-on biologics aka biogenerics. Unfortunately, we could not garner enough interest or financial support to get the organization off the ground. I guess that  we had a good idea, but, as usual, were a little ahead of our time. A new organization called The Coalition for a Competitive Pharmaceutical Market has recently set up shop with the same concept in mind.

Members of the coalition include insurance companies (Aetna, Humana, United Health Care and Blue Cross Blue Shield), pharmacies and drug distributors (CVS, Medco, Express Scripts, Rite Aid and Wallgreens), generic manufacturers (Barr Laboratories, Hospira, Teva, Mylan Laboratories and Watson Pharmaceuticals) and a large roster of Fortune 500 companies including General Motors, Ford, Caterpillar, Chrysler, Dow and Eastman Kodak. Think of the lobbying power–how cool is that?

I guess the time has come for rational drug pricing for the US. Big pharma and biotech beware–a nationalized healthcare system may not be far behind!

Until next time….

Good Luck and Good Job Hunting!!!!

Some Good News for Amgen

Amgen announced yesterday that its osteoporosis drug, denosumab, was safe and outperformed Merck’s Fosamax to improve bone density in a small Phase III clinical trial that included almost 1,200 patients. Unlike Fosamax which is taken orally once a month, denosumab (a fully humanized monoclonal antibody) only needs to be injected twice a year. As mentioned in a previous post, Fosamax will be losing patent protection and Merck recently announced that it will sell an authorized generic version of the drug. Fosamax and its generic equivalent represent the stiffest competition for denosumab if it receives regulatory approval.

Despite being the largest biotechnology company in the world, Amgen has struggled for the past year due to declining sales from its EPO franchise. Amgen’s pipeline is thin and company executives have bet the future on denosumab becoming a top seller. That said, the key measure for any osteoporosis drug is whether it can reduce or prevent bone fractures. Results from a pivotal Phase III clinical trial with over 8,000 patients comparing denosumab to placebo in fracture prevention are expected later in 2008.

I bet  a lot of employees in a Thousand Oaks have their fingers crossed!

Until next time….

Good Luck and Good Job Hunting!!!!!!!!

Authorized Generics: A New Business Model for Pharmaceutical Companies?

As many of you know, the pharmaceutical industry has been trending downward for the past year or so. Weak pipelines, uncontrolled corporate expansion and soaring drug prices have been offered to explain the recent down turn. However, the real back story to the downturn is the loss of  future revenues that is expected to occur starting in 2010 when many current blockbuster pharmaceutical products, e.g., Lipitor (Pfizer), Plavix (Sanofi Aventis), Avandia (GlaxoSmithKline), Zyprexa (Lilly), and others lose patent protection.

The loss of patent protection of branded blockbuster products is almost always accompanied by the development and subsequent, regulatory approval of lower cost, generic versions of the drugs. The Hatch Waxman Act permits generic manufacturers to begin to develop generic versions of branded products five years prior to patent expiry. This allows generic manufacturers to develop and gain regulatory approval of their products well in advance of a patent expiry date. Further, generic manufacturers usually launch their products (and flood the market) with generic versions of a branded product on the same day that its patent lapses. To induce and hasten generic development, Hatch Waxman grants market exclusivity for 180-days (6 month) to the first company that gains US regulatory approval for a generic version of a branded product that has lost patent protection.

Revenue generation and a company’s market share of branded drug products generally fall precipitously following introduction of less costly, generic versions of the drugs. From a financial standpoint, this is not surprising—why would anybody chose to pay more for a branded product when there is a cheaper and therapeutically efficacious generic alternative available?  In the past, most pharmaceutical companies chose to neglect (and ultimately abandon) blockbuster products after generic versions were introduced.  Many companies chose this strategy because, in the past, there was always another blockbuster in the pipeline that would replace the lost revenues caused by generic competition.

Unfortunately, as we all know, the days of the billon-dollar-a year blockbuster drug are long gone! This realization has caused many pharmaceutical companies to rethink their business strategies when a blockbuster drugs lose patent expiry. Many pharmaceutical companies are experimenting with a relatively new kind of product called an authorized generic–a copycat version of a company’s branded drug that is sold through a licensing agreement between the innovator company and a generic-drug manufacturer. This type of arrangement allows the innovator company to hold on to a larger share of a revenue stream from the drug once it loses patent protection and it falls prey to generic manufacturers.

Authorized generics have always made sense to me–who knows how to manufacture, market and distribute a drug better than the company that originally created it? Further, why would a company choose to give up on a revenue stream simply because a product can no longer generate billions each year due to generic encroachment– wouldn’t hundreds or even tens of millions suffice? Much to my surprise, late last week, Merck & Co announced that it had inked a deal for an authorized generic form of its blockbuster osteoporosis drug  Fosamax after the US patent expires on February 6. Merck did not disclose the terms of the deal or the identity of it generic manufacturing partner.

Industry analysts have suggested that cheaper generics will not only batter sales of Merck’s Fosomax but could also hurt rival Actonel (Proctor & Gamble Co/Sanofi-Aventis) and Boniva (Roche/GalxoSmithKline). Generic manufacturers.  Barr Laboratories and TEVA are expected to launch their own generic versions on February 6 and share the 180-day market exclusivity for their respective products.

Merck, once a champion of the old pharma blockbuster model, is slowing emerging as an industry innovator. The company’s recent decision to authorize a generic version of one of its former blockbuster drugs may be a harbinger of things to come in the pharmaceutical industry. That said, I don’t understand why big biotechnology companies like Amgen, Biogen/IDEC and Genentech are unwilling to consider the authorized generic model to stave off generic competition for blockbuster biotechnology products like EPO, Avonex and Rituxan. Whether these companies like it or not, I believe that biogenerics aka follow-on biologics will be a reality in the US in the next five years. Maybe Amgen can bolster is rapidly falling stock price by inking an authorized generic deal for EPO—rather than spending hundreds of millions on patent litigation—“whadda ya think?”

Until next time…

Good Luck and Good Job Hunting!!!!!!!!!!!